#4 – The New Minority

00:00:00: So our question was who is the new minority in big cities?

00:00:03: Actually, only people who answered correctly were the people with a migration background.

00:00:09: They usually would say it's the white people without migration backgrounds.

00:00:14: What if migration isn't something that just happens but something made?

00:00:20: Welcome to

00:00:22: production

00:00:22: site The podcast about

00:00:24: societal negotiation of migration.

00:00:27: We explore how migration is produced through policies, institutions and categories.

00:00:35: And we ask

00:00:36: what role

00:00:36: does migration research itself

00:00:38: play in this

00:00:39: process?

00:00:48: research cluster Futures of Migration here at the EMS.

00:00:51: I'm hosting this episode together with my colleague Jens Schneider, anthropologist and coordinator for our SFB's Reflexivity Lab.

00:00:59: So Jens tell us about two guests Maurice Crul and Frans Lelie in their project Becoming a Minority.

00:01:05: Why should our listeners know about these projects?

00:01:08: Well thanks Norma.

00:01:10: Maurice Crul is professor of sociology and Frans Lelie Research Fellow At The Free University In Amsterdam.

00:01:16: The Becoming a Minority Project examines the challenges and opportunities that the rapidly increasing diversity in towns, cities some call it superdiversity brings to local communities.

00:01:28: What makes their project unique is they particularly look at non-migrant population in these superdiverse neighborhoods or over several European cities.

00:01:42: This not only a widely overlooked group in research and the political debate, but the research focus also forces us to rethink the concept of integration.

00:01:52: Maurice Crul and Frans Lelie were here at Amsterdam to present their findings... ...and I took this opportunity to interview them for our podcast.

00:02:01: Great Jens!

00:02:01: Let's jump into your conversation with them….

00:02:03: …and afterwards we will have a chat about what you've heard and learned.

00:02:11: So hello,

00:02:12: Frans!

00:02:12: Hello Maurice – nice to see that you're here.

00:02:15: You recently published two books on German.

00:02:18: that are based on your becoming a minority project, short BaM.

00:02:22: The title of one of the books is... Who Is That

00:02:27: Minority?

00:02:28: Well this question we really like to pose.

00:02:31: when people started our projects was who's new minority in big cities and they came up with most fantastic groups trying to figure it out.

00:02:44: But actually, the only people who answered correctly were the people with a migration background.

00:02:50: They usually would say it's white people without migration backgrounds.

00:02:55: So there you have an answer!

00:02:58: How did come to this idea of looking at people without a migration in increasing diversity?

00:03:04: Well... It has long history.

00:03:06: We've been doing research into people with migrations and children of immigrants in Europe for more than twenty five years.

00:03:16: And of course if you do research, You need a control group and this was our control group The people without the migration background living in same cities In the same neighborhoods.

00:03:27: That's how we got information about them.

00:03:30: They stroke a court.

00:03:33: We thought wow Why?

00:03:36: If are looking into integration Into migration why is there no research?

00:03:42: The people without migration background who are forming the context of this city where people have to integrate.

00:03:49: So your outcomes, how they're doing?

00:03:52: Are their suffering from migrations in these neighborhoods or are all multicultural romantics and defenders of diversity ?

00:04:00: They are suffering greatly here.

00:04:02: No we found off course a whole scala And that was also an idea too.

00:04:07: Both ask people questions if there is sort-of sea diversity is enriching, but also ask them to if they see a diversity as a threat.

00:04:16: And so we found the whole scala of people there.

00:04:20: So what you find in the media?

00:04:23: People are concerned about increased diversity and people said that say oh I came to this city because i actually love To be in a diverse place.

00:04:38: But there is, of course the widespread discourse or narrative in media and certain political parts that these are horrible neighborhoods.

00:04:48: That people feel bad.

00:04:50: There's a lot problems And this increases non-cohesion In neighborhoods.

00:04:56: It was also anyway personal quest Because we actually live already for more than thirty years.

00:05:03: Our children have grown up.

00:05:06: We also saw that contrast between what is in the media about these kind of neighborhoods and our actually existence, which was a positive experience.

00:05:21: But we see people on our neighborhood who are negative about diversity.

00:05:26: so... That's another reason to look into it.

00:05:31: Under which conditions?

00:05:32: And this question from the book too!

00:05:34: People can live pleasantly together.

00:05:37: What is needed to live pleasently together?

00:05:39: Because we do say it doesn't happen by itself, especially the inter-ethnic encounters in a neighborhood that don't happened by themselves... ...especially people without migration background and white Dutch people.

00:05:53: In Amsterdam they tend to self segregate their own ethnic group.

00:05:58: One of your most important findings was that we need distinguish between attitudes, what people think about it and actual practices.

00:06:06: So how does that work?

00:06:09: Well we found... And this was very interesting.

00:06:12: We found quite a contradiction between what people have as an attitude What they say about diversity.

00:06:20: Then if you look at their practice It could be totally the opposite.

00:06:26: This made us think of how to combine these And we made a matrix where we asked people about their attitudes, about our opinions on migration and diversity.

00:06:40: We ask them about the practices.

00:06:42: these two accesses gave an insight in group.

00:06:47: that is absolutely negative about diversity if it comes to what they say.

00:06:53: but If you ask do have mixed groups of friends.

00:06:57: Do you have good positive contact with your neighbors, with a migration background?

00:07:02: How would you evaluate your contacts and colleagues in the migration background.

00:07:07: They are positive about this so it is very contradictory group.

00:07:13: And then on the other end of the spectrum we also found that there's a group which is very positive About diversity but if they ask them to make any meaningful contact With people with a migration background, they go blank.

00:07:28: No!

00:07:29: They don't.

00:07:30: So what size have these groups in relation?

00:07:32: What is the biggest

00:07:32: group?

00:07:33: It's very much dependent on educational level And we found this actually bit contradictory to general image.

00:07:41: Is that... Actually the people who are more practical education, vocational education They tend to have more friendships and acquaintances with their migration background.

00:07:52: They're sort of integrated into neighborhood where the majority is of a migration background, while the higher educated group has less of these contacts.

00:08:03: But they are more often positive about diversity.

00:08:07: there you see the contradiction again.

00:08:09: so they have sort of high moral ideas about diversity but in practice they don't engage much with people with migration backgrounds.

00:08:17: So these are very big groups especially under the highly-educated is very positive, but doesn't have really a lot of context.

00:08:28: So there's not to win?

00:08:30: Because they had the positive opinion so that when we started looking into why do they not engage?

00:08:38: and then came totally new insight actually And we coined it well... We didn't come up with this term.

00:08:46: It's belonging uncertainty.

00:08:49: This was used in United States for black people who feel belonging uncertainty in white environments.

00:08:58: And we used it to describe the feeling of white people without migration backgrounds, who live in super diverse neighborhoods where the majority has a migration background and they feel this belonging uncertainty... ...and are hesitant to enter into spaces that form their minority.. ..and afraid to say something wrong There, we found that there's a lot to gain.

00:09:25: To think of ways to overcome this belonging uncertainty which enables then contact.

00:09:32: You also described many those without migration background are actually not native to the neighborhoods where they live.

00:09:39: They moved their before studies or for work differently to most of the inhabitants with a migration background.

00:09:46: So how would you say, do they actively seek these neighborhoods?

00:09:49: Do they want to live in them or do they end up there because rents are cheaper... Because now the arrival neighborhood is not only for migrants but also for the natives from somewhere.

00:09:59: It's always mixed.

00:10:01: I mean that does not one reason as you know Of course many of the neighborhoods where the migrants' first generation settled were lower class, working-class neighborhoods.

00:10:14: So in general they had cheaper rents.

00:10:17: so it's an attractive neighborhood for instance to find an apartment.

00:10:23: but again there is often a mix of students higher educated and excitement going into big cities which are multicultural interesting experience.

00:10:36: so there's also sort of positive attitude, I guess.

00:10:40: So it is a mix of feelings that drive people into these neighborhoods and they're the only choice because the rents are low here And they could have negative ideas about diversity.

00:10:57: but they are stuck in situations where you don't want to be.

00:11:01: What about those who were native to the neighborhoods?

00:11:03: Who have been living there their whole lives.

00:11:05: Do they express, I don't know if that's of loss...

00:11:08: It is a very small

00:11:09: group.

00:11:09: How do you assess the change that most likely has experience over the course of your life especially when they are older or not the youngest one?

00:11:18: Well

00:11:18: first off all we need to realize it as an extremely small group like for instance in the city of Rotterdam.

00:11:24: only out of ten people had parents also born here.

00:11:30: So it's really a very small group, and of this one out of ten the majority has an migration background.

00:11:38: It is really a Very Small Group.

00:11:41: so there are

00:11:43: people that grew up in the neighborhood.

00:11:45: for instance maybe their parents came from another city but they grew Up There.

00:11:50: And we again see interesting splits as People That went to mixed schools already Eighties, because it was... neighborhood where a lot of migrant families lived and their children went to school there.

00:12:05: Also has a lot friendships with the children of migrant family's long-standing friendship.

00:12:12: but also group that had negative experience growing up in the neighborhoods schools sometimes other pupils with an immigrant background.

00:12:23: this is groups that expresses loss.

00:12:27: You see also that they are voiding, contacts.

00:12:30: It's a group says there is conflict in the neighborhood.

00:12:35: so loss means actually you live in an neighborhood and consider it opposite to your ideas or your wishes which brings people into this downward spiral of conflicts and negative experiences.

00:12:52: I

00:12:53: mean, you compared a lot of neighborhoods in the different cities.

00:12:56: So can you say something about the characteristics of neighborhoods that are more positive or get more positive outcomes and the characteristic those neighborhood tend to be more negative?

00:13:08: Yeah it's something we were also interested in.

00:13:11: Characteristics could be a prominent example.

00:13:14: what we found is this... The architectural of housing so high rise for instance where There is ten floors and sometimes a few hundred people living in high-rise.

00:13:29: there's a lot of anonymity In these places, People often don't know their neighbors by name.

00:13:35: So we saw that small conflicts about youth For instance loitering in the hallways are named often in ethnic terms.

00:13:45: so normal confluence causing noise, being late at night in the street are ethnically named.

00:13:54: and we see that smaller units where there is for instance six families living on a staircase.

00:14:01: In older buildings people know each other by name.

00:14:04: And if there's something you would say hey what?

00:14:07: What are you doing?

00:14:08: or You address parents of these people.

00:14:14: They don't get to be conflicts in the first instance already, but also they are not considered ethnic conflict.

00:14:20: But just conflicts with youth that normally happen in places where children play outside.

00:14:28: So we saw a big impact on how housing is organized in these neighborhoods.

00:14:34: so anonymity Is kind of the main enemy?

00:14:38: Absolutely.

00:14:40: And what about cities?

00:14:42: Did you find differences between the six cities.

00:14:46: Well, there we found interesting differences how things are organized and a prime example on their schools.

00:14:54: school choice is always important.

00:14:57: if they have places where school choices allow you to send your child outside of your neighborhood for instance two school which has less immigrant children white flight There's a huge impact on how people live then in such an neighborhood because, yeah.

00:15:14: Then you don't know the other children in your neighborhoods Because your kid doesn't go to school with these kids.

00:15:19: if you could go to the playground You don't recognize the other parents and their children.

00:15:25: so there is less contact as a result.

00:15:29: And places where Children more often go together to school In the neighborhood that you see more contact and more friendships between parents also as a result.

00:15:39: So how we organize things in institutions has an important impact on what we see, uh... In our outcomes.

00:15:49: And what about public discourse?

00:15:50: I can imagine like for example Rotterdam is much more harsh and much more right-wing.

00:15:55: Yeah.

00:15:55: Dockham dominated Amsterdam.

00:15:57: For example Vienna probably have more Right wing or anti migrant discourse than you would find in Malmö.

00:16:04: maybe i don't know.

00:16:06: However again This is about discourse, opinions.

00:16:12: But practice... ...is not always following the discourse.

00:16:17: and Rotterdam's a very interesting example because already for fifteen years there was an anti-immigrant party in The Coalition ruling the city.

00:16:26: And still you see that on the ground In this super diverse city which has almost sixty percent people with migration background And for the youth under fifteen, it's I think now only one out of four has no migration background.

00:16:45: So on-the-ground actually the practice is pretty similar as in other cities.

00:16:53: But if course that doesn't impact indirectly on policies.

00:16:58: In Rotterdam, there is already for twenty years an anti-immigrant party part of the coalition that rules this city.

00:17:08: So in that sense again That impacts how things are organized maybe not so much How people interact with each other?

00:17:19: An interesting thing we found Is that People say that diversity is threatening if they live in Vienna or in Rotterdem and Amsterdam.

00:17:28: Of those, half of them in practice... ...in each city do something contrary to what they say.

00:17:36: They have good relationships with their neighbors and migrant backgrounds.

00:17:39: so the percentages are the same.

00:17:41: but the group is bigger in Vienna.

00:17:44: that's negative about it obviously And the group in Rotterdam is also bigger.

00:17:49: So there is an impact But then its okay.

00:17:55: The politics reflect a bit the attitudes of people.

00:17:58: So what is first?

00:17:59: Is it politics or it's attitudes, so are there sort of interaction between politics and attitude on people?

00:18:07: A central concept in your work-in your book is this majority minority city thing.

00:18:13: I'd say when we look at the cities that you looked at Hamburg is not a majority minority City but off course.

00:18:19: as all cities i guess In Europe they have Majority Minority Neighbors And thats where did research.

00:18:24: Does it make a difference, let's say if the city as whole is majority-minority or just refers to certain neighborhood?

00:18:34: During Corona period we were asked do survey by City Council.

00:18:42: We used lot of same questions for the BAM survey

00:18:46: about social

00:18:47: cohesion and interaction in contact And there we didn't restrict ourselves to the majority minority neighborhoods, but looked at all of them.

00:18:57: So it was an interesting case that the picture is very different than in the majority-minority neighborhood and again in terms of attitudes not so much.

00:19:08: Neighborhoods who had a lot higher class people which often have better education levels, of course.

00:19:15: They were again a bit more positive about diversity so we get the same phenomenon but they had less contact which is sort-of obvious because they don't live in the majority minority neighborhood.

00:19:28: So... But.. We saw it In a way.

00:19:30: we saw the same phenomena there.

00:19:32: Yeah!

00:19:33: So positive about their diversity often but in practice not so much.

00:19:38: Maybe as a final question, in Germany at least I perceive certain reluctance and left-wing and liberal circles to embrace the idea of majority minority.

00:19:48: Also because there's this right wing discourse.

00:19:51: Okay, migration makes us becoming as Germans become a minority in our own country.

00:19:56: And I think that the reluctance probably is because they feel if we now underline how many places Germans are becoming a minority... In these neighborhoods.

00:20:06: this feeds into right-wing discourse.

00:20:08: How do you deal with it?

00:20:09: Or did you get similar reactions also to the Netherlands?

00:20:12: or what would be your argument against...?

00:20:15: Well That's exactly why wanted to research.

00:20:19: So let's see, okay?

00:20:21: In a situation where this is sort of what right-wing political parties say.

00:20:26: This is what we're all afraid off.

00:20:28: so lets look at places that have this composition.

00:20:32: Is these places were there was constant war going on?

00:20:36: Do people do not like to live in these neighborhoods?

00:20:40: Are they conflict with each other all the time?

00:20:43: And by and large we didn't find those findings.

00:20:47: We had this discussion also in the US, people were really reluctant to talk about it because they said that would play into negative scenario of right.

00:20:58: Exactly what Maurice is saying.

00:21:00: we are saying look at a practice!

00:21:02: What's going on?

00:21:04: And as if reality has to face let us look into what options make it work.

00:21:17: When you even look at those people that vote for these right-wing parties, in practice they don't do what the right wing party is.

00:21:24: Suppose they are doing... A lot of them have good relationships with their neighbors' immigration background and colleagues's immigration background so even those who support us from this party actually in practice doesn't know how to predict well it will happen.

00:21:41: I think its an important finding If we are not focused so much on their attitudes, but maybe more on our practices.

00:21:52: These neighborhoods could work well as a place where people from different backgrounds live because also they contribute to positive atmosphere in these neighborhood.

00:22:04: if they're friendly to the neighbors They contributed to successful neighborhood... ...if there are friendly to colleagues or in shops that's positive!

00:22:13: They have nicer life.

00:22:15: This is also how we came to the term integration into diversity, as opposed to the old integration paradigm where only people with a migration background have to integrate in the majority society.

00:22:31: At that moment when there's no longer a majority of people without a migration backgrounds you'll sort-of find new ways make your life work on daily basis And if you ask of everybody to integrate into this diversity, then make a step... ...to go away from the whole idea of loss and find new ways to interact with each other.

00:23:02: That in the end is the real progressive answer because writing parties don't have an answer for that question.

00:23:09: And ignoring doesn't make it go away!

00:23:11: The only way we should not be in this situation?

00:23:14: But they don't have an answer.

00:23:16: How do we live pleasantly together?

00:23:18: And I think what progressive people need to do is find ways to live pleasently, but the fault of the left wing has been that this happens by itself... ...but we really have to organize and help people connect with each other in order for them success.

00:23:37: So if it's a program then there will be strong programs against us!

00:23:42: right-wing discourse, because then you really bring something to people rather than only say this is problematic and it should not be how we live together.

00:23:54: Although I think that's also one argument... We have to rethink our ideas about what means to be Dutch or German?

00:24:02: Absolutely!

00:24:03: Just two numbers in a majority minority and most of the majority minorities at seventy five percent have German citizenship And eighty percent of the teenagers and children are native born, eighty to ninety percent.

00:24:16: So these our kids that go there to school... That's a reality!

00:24:23: The new Germans?

00:24:24: The new Hamburgers?

00:24:25: Absolutely.

00:24:26: But

00:24:26: left wing parties have this discourse.

00:24:29: These are the new Germans but they don't ever program.

00:24:34: how do it?

00:24:36: so everybody feels to belong in these cities, connect with each other.

00:24:41: And I think we need develop a program together bottom up.

00:24:46: how do this?

00:24:47: better?

00:24:47: because we failed and the group that is very positive about diversity but has no connections.

00:24:55: it's sort of just showcase that we failed.

00:24:58: We need you know needs to be

00:25:00: doing good job.

00:25:05: Well.

00:25:05: thanks a lot!

00:25:06: Thank You!

00:25:10: Jens, I've really followed your conversation with Maurice and Frans for great interest.

00:25:15: And i was wondering what my takeaways from the interview about their research were?

00:25:20: Well...I think firstly that stuck to me is the idea of integration into diversity because it reframes an entire debate.

00:25:29: In cities where no single group constitutes majority, the old integration paradigm that minorities must adapt in one way or another to a so-called wide majority is obsolete.

00:25:39: All residents including white people without migration backgrounds must actively learn to navigate and co-create diverse spaces.

00:25:46: This requires deliberate effort And not passive coexistence.

00:25:51: I also thought about attitudes and behavior on how they can diverge significantly.

00:25:57: I found surprising how people with negative views on diversity often have more meaning for real world encounters.

00:26:28: two often contradict each other.

00:26:30: Rotterdam, for example has some of the most anti-immigrant political rhetoric in The Netherlands and yet nearly sixty percent of its residents have a migration background and on the ground social practices resemble those in other cities.

00:26:42: even voters for right wing parties tend to not really always act in line with those party's positions.

00:26:50: while I find those findings encouraging.

00:26:52: there is a risk of underplaying the cumulative sometimes indirect effects of anti migrant discourse i believe For example, on policy.

00:27:00: On institutional behavior and how migrants themselves feel in public spaces.

00:27:04: I'm thinking of recent research from Germany for example that showed very clearly How many individuals who migrated to Germany actually considered leaving the country due to hardening rhetoric.

00:27:15: Other research shows that political discursive framings shape social norms over time, even when individual behavior lags behind.

00:27:22: And so I'm also thinking about the anti-diversity logics beyond some of urban policies – these impact who lives together?

00:27:29: So while discourse may not change how neighbors greet each other it might well change who greets whom in their neighborhood.

00:27:39: I think that's a good point, although i don't think the book really intends to downplay the detrimental effects of anti-immigration discourse.

00:28:03: We find this, by the way also in the outcomes of the integrations monitor of the Sachverständigenrat, you know.

00:28:08: The SVR that consistently shows people are much more positive about migration and diversity etc.

00:28:14: than one might expect after decades anti-migration discourses Also In the political mainstream.

00:28:22: That's a really good point.

00:28:23: Another thing said slightly uneasy with me was use category immigration background.

00:28:28: Of course I mean it is not very new critique.

00:28:31: That said, you know migration background is a quite complicated category.

00:28:36: It doesn't only vary considerably across national contexts but it's also notoriously slippery in Germany for instance and can be extended to third generation descendants.

00:28:45: .It also conflates very different experiences including recent arrivals long-settled communities and EU mobility while simultaneously relying on a racialized visual marker that white that the framework never fully interrogates.

00:29:00: How do we deal with it in our effort to move beyond exactly these markers?

00:29:06: Yes, I completely share the uneasiness of this category but here is basically a methodological question and choice for quantitative part how to sample people who don't have migration experience on their own or grew up in family with such an experience.

00:29:23: Yes, it still makes a big difference whether people came as refugees or through family unification... ...or students over the work contract.

00:29:30: Whether they were born here or not.. ..or even their parents already grew up there if they come within three years ago.

00:29:39: The funny thing is that this category works relatively good for those who do NOT have a migration background.

00:29:45: So it is still, of course a compromise.

00:29:47: It entails a lot of fuzziness and suggests homogeneity.

00:29:50: that obviously does also not do justice to the variety of biographical experiences of those who statistically don't have a migration background.

00:30:00: That's unavoidable I would say in a quantitative study on this topic.

00:30:04: Clearly that category allows for a quantitative approach and also to capture what they referred in your conversation as control group, which are the white people without migration backgrounds definitely.

00:30:16: A last takeaway from me would be the relevance of structural factors.

00:30:20: Frans and Maurice mentioned the role.

00:30:22: architecture is an obvious.

00:30:24: livability depends on quality housing but there other factors such poverty unemployment family situations bad school experiences.

00:30:33: How able and willing am I to become a volunteer coach for youth football in my neighborhood when i can hardly pay my rent?

00:30:39: Not all of these can be directly tackled by local policies, but there are plenty possibilities.

00:30:45: And on the other side... The lack of policies or wrong policies really make things much worse!

00:31:03: But it also shows that in these questions people share, the difference is not between people with and without migration background.

00:31:10: The difference is between class or between

00:31:12: income.".

00:31:14: Thank you for listening to Production Site –

00:31:18: the podcast about the societal

00:31:20: negotiation of migration.

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00:31:34: Production site is produced by the Collaborative Research Centre production of migration At Osnabrück University, funded by The German Research Foundation In collaboration with Podcastfabrik Bielefeld.

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